mk: Hello and welcome to The Child and Its Enemies, a podcast about queer and neurodivergent kids living out anarchy and youth liberation. Here at The Child and Its Enemies, we believe that youth autonomy is not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on projecting linear narratives of time and development and gender onto our necessarily asynchronous and atemporal queer lives.
And youth and teens are at the center of this form of oppression. Our goal with the podcast is to create a space by and for youth that challenges all forms of control and inspires us to create weird, feral, ageless networks of care. I’m your host MK Zariel. I’m 15 years old and I’m the youth correspondent at the Anarchist Review of Books, author of the blog Debate Me Bro, and organizer for trans liberation in the Great Lakes region and beyond.
With me today is Shannon Clay, author of We Go Where They Go, a history of anti racist action.
Shannon: Hello. Yes, me, Shannon. He him. I’m stoked to be here.
mk: So to start us off, who were Anti Racist Action and how were youth and teens involved?
Shannon: Cool. Yeah. So Anti Racist Action was I’m sorry. I realized I maybe to give a bit of introduction about myself could have done that a second ago when you teed me up for it.
Sorry about that. Yeah. So I am 1 of the 4 authors of a book called we go where they go with the story of antiracist action which first title is a history of this group called. Anti racist action other three coauthors were all in area back in the day I was not so yeah as far as what anti racist action was ARA, as it’s often called, was the like primary anti fascist movement.
In the so called us and Canada for 15 to 20 ish years. Our book covers the history from when it started in 1986 through the early two thousands groups continue to call themselves ARA to this day. But that’s the main history that we cover. It started in the twin cities. Like Minneapolis and St. Paul in the skinhead scene. And then lots of other like punk and other youth subcultures of basically people were in these youth spaces. And then all of a sudden Nazis started showing up in those spaces. And kids joined together and got organized to fight back very literally like in terms of organizing and then also often physically to defend themselves and their communities and their scenes and their friends from a very real and immediate threat of fascists.
And then from there, it grew significantly over years, it coalesced into a more like formal, but still very decentralized network. in 1994. It’s a huge history. Maybe for that reason we, we can’t, I don’t think we’re trying to cover everything, but yeah the basic gist is that yeah, 1994 got into this network, which continued to grow Probably not probably there were like hundreds of chapters over the course of areas life with many people involved doing all kinds of things from again, like fighting Nazis in their own scene to then expanding out to go out into a more public facing world and contest.
The Ku Klux Klan was a really big one in the Midwest, Ohio, Indiana many states around that region in the nineties, lots of other things. As far as youth involvement it very much was throughout its whole history, a youth movement. I mentioned how it was started by kids who were in their own scenes and.
Yeah, just had to get together to take care of each other basically. And also to yeah, to make a like political statement that also they were politically opposed to racism. And yeah, I think like throughout its entire history, you continue to have maybe 20 somethings at the upper end maybe through, at least the period of our book again, towards The early 2000s really yeah, upper twenties was probably the upper limit of the vast majority of involvement in era.
And area was always very like conscious and proud of this, that they were a youth movement. And that sort of went in both directions of both, like bringing in this sort of youthful energy and a lot of like youthful cultural things into their anti racist organizing. And also going the other direction of trying to make anti racism, a part of the youth cultures that they were in which punk is like a really big example of that.
Also some like techno scenes in, especially in like Canada and stuff like ska scenes, hip hop, all of these things Yeah they really throughout ARA’s history it was always very much a youth movement and aware of that and proud of that and tried to inject that into their politics.
mk: As you’re talking about, the punk scene has historically been considered a space for young, usually queer and trans folks, and I’m wondering how you conceive of that. groups like A. R. A. fitting into a broader youth liberationist politic and subculture? By trying to make punk spaces and obviously all of society less racist, were they explicitly doing youth liberationist work, or were they more working towards this intersectional approach to anti racism that so happened to be within a youth subculture?
Shannon: Yeah, great question. Both those things and neither of those things. I don’t. Yeah, let’s get into it. Use the word like intersectional. For example, 1 thing is I would not. Tend to say that had a very intersectional approach if for no other reason than, that term wasn’t really in use by area people.
I think it was invented. I forget when the original essay was published that came up with intersectional, but it was like, around the same time that I already started. By the time that intersectionality, really had spread that was not really a big part of areas explicit analysis.
I don’t think. But maybe I would describe area as like their objective what they were trying to do. Was pretty explicitly like anti fascism. They did over the course of their history have different people pulling in different directions of how much they also wanted to work in other things like for example, like reproductive freedom was like a really big thing, but you can think of if like their primary objective was anti fascism I think they’re like tactics to get there were youth focused or youth liberation focused ARA, started as a youth movement because they were responding to things in their own scenes.
They were the ones being targeted for alternately like both recruitment if they were white or also violence by these fascists including white kids, obviously, especially like kids of color. They were being targeted by these fascists, like in their youth spaces. So then they responded to that fascism, like with anti fascism and then their anti fascism was itself youth focused because they were in their youth spaces, so I think it’s a really cool and interesting thing where they didn’t necessarily need a super explicit, like youth focus when they were starting out because they already had it. Or so like when I say they didn’t need it, they didn’t need to like work hard to inject a sort of youth liberation politics into it because they were already Yeah.
Doing that and already living that if that makes sense as far as they were all these kids getting together. And yeah, trying to make again, like their spaces safer for themselves and for their homies. And then different people to different degrees and over time, then expand that also into a. Broader outer, like critique of racism and fascism in the U S.
So later on it was a two way street where later on and over time, both the sort of youth liberation stuff and the anti fascism both grow and then continue to influence each other later. You have area groups like consciously choosing to do cool shit for like youth scenes or youth spaces just for their own sake slash also to grow the movement and to recruit people into it.
An area also take their anti fascism beyond just youth spaces, where they are also like going to clan rallies, which were in more of a public sphere and not only in the youth spaces, but all both the anti fascism and the youth focus continued and they influenced each other. And then they also didn’t.
Always have to only be in conversation with each other. Like I said, sometimes you can just like do youth shit cause it’s cool and fun. And yeah.
mk: Thank you so much for bringing this up. I really agree that in youth spaces, we don’t necessarily need an explicitly youth liberationist politic because the very act of teenagers and youth articulating anarchism, because that’s what we need in our lives.
And, family abolition, because that’s where we’re facing oppression, et cetera. Yeah. That is inherently youth liberationist. And I was talking to someone about this at an activist conversions recently. The people who need youth liberation the most are the people who are already adult, but haven’t unpacked the trauma of their childhoods because they think it was justified by compulsory education or the nuclear family.
If you’re a teenager and you’re already resisting those things, calling it youth liberation might not do that much for you, other than obviously finding communities and spaces and theories that feel resonant. But in terms of calling someone out, oh, you need to work more on youth liberation, that’s a charge that I think adults tend to face more than teens do, and for good reason.
Because with the exception of a few teenagers who really condescend to younger children, which, as a teenager I’ve had to push back on that a lot, there aren’t that many. Ages, young people. And when there are, it’s an internalized thing, thinking that the hate that we face is ethical.
But I feel like what you’re describing with A. R. A. really did that well, because their views were so youth liberationist, but it also wasn’t this idea that, oh, we need to work on youth liberation, because obviously doing that work with this positionality was, of course, youth liberationist. On this topic what do you think about this strategy of starting movements in youth spaces and then making them more generalized?
Because I’ve been part of movements like that, and they’re great, but if an adult is at the helm and the goal is to radicalize youth without caring about the struggles that we face, then it starts to get into racist territory. So I’m really curious about your thoughts on this in the context of ARA.
Shannon: Yeah, that’s, especially that last part you mentioned of and then when you have like an older person who’s like trying to engage, but like, how much are they like, trying to educate or, recruit young people basically versus like work side by side with them.
Yeah, it’s tough. I think it’s tough. I think it’s very, not to get too meta on the question, but I think the question is also very good because it’s like such a good sort of, you can do such a parallel for so many other things of for example, like white people trying to organize in for anti racism or like in predominantly POC spaces.
Or straight people trying to like work for queer liberation, like what’s that sort of just when you mentioned,
mk: yeah, like as a folks having tried to organize a GSA at my school only to watch straight people try to take it over. I feel that very acutely.
Shannon: Yeah. Okay. So I’m sorry, I gave a lot of meta commentary on the question.
So the question itself was like this strategy of starting movement in youth spaces and then making them more generalized Like how ultimately like youth liberationist, do we think that is that’s the question, right?
mk: Yeah. Do we think it’s youth liberationist for movements to start in youth spaces and then expand? And if so, how do we make it youth liberationist and keep it from this elite capture dynamic in which an adult infiltrates a youth space, radicalizes people, then starts an ML trope.
Shannon: Too real. Yeah, great question. I think short answer. Yes, I think it’s a good strategy. To I think if you can build movements in youth spaces, then yeah, it’s almost like technological, then like you have organized youth into a movement.
And that’s a really powerful thing. And then that also, those movements don’t even necessarily only have to be like, quote unquote, about youth in the, for example, in the case of ARA. being most obviously about like anti fascism still, like we discussed then when you like, because it is a group of youth doing it, it has that youth liberationist dimension.
So yeah, I, I think it is a very powerful model to get people organized to get people bring people in when they are, It’s again, just such a common theme across like many different dimensions, but just like seeing that people who you have something in common with or like out here doing this thing, it just feels very much more accessible.
Then if, for example, you’re like a teenager and then there is a group of yeah, all these 30 something hardcore theory bros or something, I’ll doing something. So let’s see. Yeah, one thing it puts in my mind is that can also be like, A movement of movements. I think is an important and valuable thing.
And so yeah, I think obviously in our like quest for liberation, any one movement, much less anyone like single group is not going to do the whole thing. And so that’s why I think it does make sense to like, have movements that are organizing in specific spaces or like for specific things.
That then they don’t have to be too like limited or, for example, if you have like a group of youth who are working on youth liberation things I think that’s awesome. And as far as to construct, maybe a counter argument to it to be like but that’s of course not enough.
And we need to grow into these other things. That’s when I think the, again, like movement of movements would be a very useful that you can have. Youth focusing on youth liberation spaces and queer people focusing on like queer liberation. And you can have all these different movements. And all these different identities but then none of them being like mutually exclusive that of course.
mk: Kids can be youth and queer. Wow.
Shannon: Exactly.
mk: All of our listeners.
Shannon: Exactly.
It’s 2024. What kind of, yeah. I, sometimes I like to joke of what kind of 15 year old in 2024 isn’t a little gay. But I don’t know. It’s okay.
mk: Statistically, 20 percent of Generation Z identifies as queer in France, and this is in a time where homophobia is rampant and we have a neo fascist state. I’ll just let that be there.
Shannon: Yeah, that’s why I was like, holding back that I sometimes joke about that, but of course, yeah. Let’s see here. I guess to try to wrap it up Yeah, I think it is a like valid and powerful strategy to have like youth dedicated spaces and youth dedicated movements for reasons that honestly might be like pretty self explanatory of like why that’s cool and valuable of again, just like seeing other people who look like, if I’m this young person, I’m seeing other young people organizing that is like motivating and more accessible to me.
And that, again, I think it can take place as part of this broader ecosystem of resistance movements that can all be overlapping and sharing members and sharing ideas and sharing propaganda and all learning from each other and working side by side.
mk: Yeah I am. I definitely agree there that making it own voices is absolutely necessary for youth liberation. I really value youth live movements that are intergenerational and very intentionally non hierarchical. Because if something has even the slightest hint of hierarchy and explicitly liberationist movement, then pretty soon that will get towards ageism.
And then the 50 year old will start announcing that because they were once a teenager, they can speak on this. Which, But I also think that the idea that teenagers should only organize with each other and not really be in the broader anarchist movement is profoundly ageist, as is the huge stigma around adults who maybe want to have mentorships or friendships with anarchist teens.
Because that’s absolutely necessary to social movements. And if we can’t have intergenerational friendships and community and organizing together, we also can’t really combat ageism. If someone doesn’t interact with teenagers. then they’ll end up being ageist toward us. So I feel like that separatist impetus, or perhaps like the fear some people have that if someone is an adult they’ll necessarily be ageist, is pretty unfounded.
But I think the fact that hierarchy enables ageism is something to be incredibly mindful of. Which is most anarchist teenagers I know avoid the DSA and similar organizations because, who is in leadership really determines what happens, and it’s impossible for a teenager to get onto leadership.
And of course, due to this podcast being anarchist, that much was obvious, but yeah on this topic how would you define youth liberation in punk spaces and subcultural spaces generally? What can it mean for punk to be anti racist and anti ageist, and how can those struggles be intertwined?
Shannon: Cool. What can it mean for punk spaces to be anti racist and anti ageist? How are those struggles intertwined? And in punk? Okay, I think A couple of first thoughts to briefly touch on some things that we’ve alluded to. I think so in punk sort of explicit youth liberation politics, using that term and with the.
More like theoretical and generally anarchist, like underpinnings beneath. It is pretty rare in punk rock from what I see. Whereas what is extremely common is the, of course natural instincts that, like. The natural instincts that like ideologically liberation grows out of, like the feeling of being a young person and being like, yo, like this fucking sucks.
Like a lot of shit is really getting me down in a way that I don’t think I’m okay with. That and that sort of lived experience, which, of course, is very valid, I think, is the much more common thing. And then it’s rare to see people super explicitly, I think turn it into a deeper sort of read of society that’s 1 thing I think was really cool about era was again that while it started as a very natural thing, over time, there were people trying to push it more explicitly as hey, this is something we should. Yeah, just be explicitly aware of and care about and and so I think that is really cool. For punk spaces to be anti racist. I think anti racism is punk has a trickier relationship with anti racism really because it’s often I would explain ARA in terms of the punk scene. And so if people are familiar with punk, then maybe this can be helpful. And if not use this, however helpful it is, but ARA like punk was like often white. And different like cities could be like very heavily white could be super white. And you have to like always balance, both acknowledging that as like a real thing that was happening while also not. In the case of like punk, I think people then sometimes go too far in the other direction and say Oh, punk is just like white people shit in a way that is then shitty. Cause you’re like erasing the presence that like, there are people of color in punk who are like doing really cool shit and have been since the beginning and so you don’t want to erase that But you also need to be able to acknowledge the ways that punk spaces can often be super white.
So I hope that made sense in the case of both era and the punk scene at different places and times. I’d say that the two are like, pretty white things that in different places and times have very important exceptions to that, that in a city like Baltimore or something, like it’s a pretty diverse scene because like it’s fucking Baltimore. They’re not a ton of white people in Baltimore. If anything, they’re probably like disproportionately present in the punk scene. But still, yeah then you have a a punk scene that like has more melanin than a lot of other places. And so I guess, what does it mean for like punk spaces to be anti racist?
I think it can be, That can depend, on which punk spaces we mean almost where again, like if it’s a punk scene, like of a bunch of kids of color, which totally does exist in many different cities, then like just doing the thing, obviously, just like we were talking about with age, like they’re already there and doing the thing.
So that has like important anti racist value. I think probably like kids of color, punks of color I probably know that and they don’t need me to explain to them like how to be anti racist. But then on the other hand, you have spaces that might be pretty heavily white in punk spaces.
And so I think that is something that maybe I can speak to a bit more directly and as a white person. That then it comes down to this sort of like perennial question, right? Of What does it mean to not be a part of, but to want to be in solidarity with a oppressed, marginalized group?
So that can be, like, older people wanting to be in solidarity with younger people, or cishet folks wanting to be in solidarity with queer people. Or white people wanting to be in solidarity with people of color. Yeah, I don’t know if I have a like super specific prescription for like white kids in punk spaces other than just to put the politics out there, I think is like really important. And that might sound basic, but I think in sort of cultural spaces it can be interesting how sometimes it’s taken for granted that, for example, like a punk scene is like anti racist and cool.
And then because it’s taken for granted, people like, don’t feel the need to talk about it a ton. And then you turn around and all of a sudden you’re like, wait, all of a sudden I’m like hearing a bunch of whack shit, like I’m hearing people say whack racist shit in like my punk scene don’t they know that punk is anti racist and it’s wait, but if we weren’t, I guess we weren’t putting it forward enough to like, make that clear to make people believe that understand that if you’re going to be in this space anti racism really matters. And yeah to use a lot of words to get to a pretty simple point, I think punk spaces just need to be like, Very open and explicit about including the politics and not let the politics be removed. And then you end up with, maybe just a bunch of really macho dudes who really love like chugga, hardcore loud music. And then. It was such a, it was such a great question with there are so many directions to potentially take it.
I want to try to wrap up here. But then you also asked about what it might mean for spaces to be both anti racist and anti ageist. And how the struggles can intertwine. Yeah, I don’t know, I think I unfortunately I can easily imagine or I’ve been in spaces that are like anti wage ageist but aren’t super anti racist.
Again, coming at this is like a white person. You can be like in youth spaces that are going to contain that again, at least like intuitive anti ageism, but might be like really white and aren’t automatically anti racist. So I don’t know if you’re like a white kid, who’s trying to do this shit, I guess I would just say stay humble and keep trying.
And I think honestly, I don’t know, like giving a shit and like understanding that this is something that needs to be like taken seriously and thought about all the time and needs to be a lens for like many different things that you continuously work for and aren’t necessarily super perfect in every time, but that is something that you just continue to work hard to incorporate if you’re like white kid in these youth spaces.
Be aware of what spaces you’re in. If you’re in a space, that’s like super white why might that be? And that doesn’t even mean necessarily that it’s like a problem to be fixed by quote unquote, like recruiting people of color. Maybe people of color have like their own spaces they’d rather be in and it’s not obviously like their job to show up at our shit to make us feel better and cooler. And we’re a part of a more diverse scene or something. But it’s I think one, one lesson that I’ve taken out of things like that as again, like a white person is to maybe instead of is to, yeah, be aware of what spaces I’m in and when those are like, heavily white spaces and to like, counterpoint to then go and, you can maybe seek out the spaces where people of color do want to be not in a weird, shitty culture vulture way where you’re just like showing up and like taking and consuming or thinking that because you’re giving a shit about like culture of primarily people of color, that makes you super woke or anti racist.
But yeah, just being aware that I think again I don’t know, the world is like that movement of movements thing. There are so many different things. That, you can have a music scene in one city that’s like pretty white and you can have a music scene in that same city, that’s like maybe a lot of kids of color and I don’t know, at a certain point you may not be able to if you’re trying to make your white scene more like anti racist, you may not be able to like, quote unquote, fix it by like bringing in a bunch of people of color, which might feel like the thing you’re supposed to do but instead maybe one scene is just going to be pretty white and one scene is going to be a lot of people of color. But what we should be short, what we should be ensuring is that those scenes are like, can walk side by side and support each other. And yeah be a part of the same sort of broader movement towards towards liberation and towards taking care of each other and towards Yeah, again, in the case of like white people, like giving a shit,
mk: thank you so much for bringing this up, like this idea that it isn’t about who is in our scene and it isn’t about pressuring people to be in our scenes who don’t want to be. It’s about making sure that every community that we have is welcoming and that our politics are explicitly anarchist. And like in my view, ideally, youth liberationist movements are for everyone, but at the same time, like sometimes cultural spaces really do just need to be cultural spaces and what allyship looks is to have spaces that are, as you say, side by side with them. On the topic of your personal experience were you into punk and anarchy as a kid? And what would have made organizing spaces more accessible for you at that age?
Shannon: Yeah, I don’t. So yes, I was I was like introduced to politics and specifically anarchism through punk rock as a kid and like through the internet, I think I like YouTube auto played. Johnny hobo and the freight trains for me, which I think for a certain like super hyper specific genre of like punk anarchist and a certain generation of a punk anarchist kid. I think that’s 100 percent of us were introduced to music by this person, Pat Schneeweiss AKA Johnny hobo or ramshackle glory ring that dishwashers union.
Yeah. So it was like the internet, I was already into punk. Like as a sort of musical genre and then yeah then being, randomly again, through like the algorithm, which come to think of it feels pretty shitty to say yeah, just like randomly introduced to Punk music that was much more like explicitly anarchist.
And again, not treating it as the like background vibe, but like explicitly I don’t know, fucking lecturing the listener about here’s why the police are your enemy. Which I think is really cool and important. And so then from there and again, through the internet, I found out about more shows happening in my local community, in my local city and started going to shows.
And then the overlap between punk and politics was not always as strong as I would have liked. Sometimes the punk scene was pretty apolitical and most of my political friends were also into punk, but then we were, like, the minority at the punk scene of, people actually I don’t know, maybe that’s inevitable that if you’re in a cultural scene, maybe the majority of people might always be, like, generally supportive, but not necessarily turning their whole lives into another aspect of it, like the politics, but yeah.
So then. Like I said the punk scene in the organizing spaces didn’t overlap a ton, necessarily, for me, as much as I might have liked them to as much as they might have in, for example, the history of, hey, anti racist action in A. R. A., punk and organizing spaces were often very closely linked.
But yeah, so while they weren’t the same thing to me to answer your question about what would have made organizing spaces more accessible for me when I was younger I think I, I may have been pretty lucky in that regard. I don’t think I faced big barriers of accessibility. I think. Honestly, if anything, what I would have liked more of is what you mentioned of the inter-generational youth liberation spaces or just inter-generational spaces in general. That like when I started coming around in the punk scene, pretty much everyone was like, five or six years older than me, but not significantly older.
And then in the political scenes that I was in, I was, I got involved through student organizing. And so then it was all people who were, the same age as me in college. Yeah. And so then by the same token that it wasn’t super alienating of I was surrounded by people who were not a very similar age to me.
I actually would have loved to have more elders around I think more feelings of oh, there are people who have done this shit before. There are people who are like older than 25, but still give a shit, still show up to things. Yeah, if that’s okay, if that’s not just like completely inverting your question too much, I would say what I would have.
mk: It isn’t at all. anti ageism goes in both directions, and I’m so glad you brought that up. And honestly, I feel like that’s necessary for youth liberation too, because one of the most common critiques anarchists use Base is, oh, this is just a youthful base, you’ll grow out of this. And the existence of adult anarchists in our spaces and the possibility for youth to have mentorships and friendships, etc. that are outside the bubble of youth spaces is so important to our liberation. So I honestly think that spaces being more accessible to people who aren’t, the stereotypical age of an anarchist organizer is equally necessary. I was going to ask what advice you have for kids and teens who want to get into anarchism or subculture or anti racism. I know you covered a lot of that, but is there anything else you wanted to share in that regard?
Shannon: I was actually just about to say something as part of that last question that so yeah, when you, I think we both mentioned, and so I would maybe if I could. Yeah, but I think my advice to any kids who need to hear it is like, That yes, there are older anarchists out there and so good, right?
I just know that if someone had been able to tell me that when I was fucking like 16, I would have really loved to hear that. Like they’re out there. You’re, it’s not like inevitable that you’re going to fucking turn old and turn into a Democrat and and and also you’re not crazy because like you see the world this way and it seems like no one else does except for like other 16 year olds or something.
mk: Yeah, just chiming in. Sometimes as we get older, we feel more resonant in our anarchism. Like I got radicalized when I was 13 and two years in I have new pronouns. So if that’s any indication.
Shannon: Yeah, it I am very grateful and humbled by the way that like my anarchism has evolved over time. And I do feel very yeah very lucky to have been able to like, I feel like anarchism is a really important part of who I am. And so as far as my anarchism has been able to grow over the years, that’s like me as a person going over the years in a way that’s, that I’m very grateful for. But yeah I guess to, to simplify it a bit, as far as any message for the kids out there?
I would just say the older people who still give a shit, are out there and if you feel really alienated or isolated, cause you don’t know any of them I hope it can be of some reassurance that like they’re out there somewhere. And they’re probably wondering where you are too. As I have honestly, just in the last 18 months, as I finally have met anarchists who are like older than myself, which side note is a huge reason that I’m so grateful for this ARA project. And ARA was not all 100 percent anarchists, but very anarchist influenced through the course of doing this project. I’ve been able to meet so many like older, like 40, 50, 60 year old anarchists who are still active. That yeah, they are out there. And I’ve met a lot of people of that age who in turn are wondering of like, Where are the kids? Cause, cause they go to, cause we’re all in our own bubbles. And so like they go to their meetings maybe, and, they’re all working alongside all their like 40 year old comrades who are all like yeah. And then facing their own struggles of trying to juggle making a living under capitalism and maybe provide for kids and all these other things. So I would say to, as far as an advice thing, I think that we are all out here and a lot of us are like looking for each other, but don’t know where to look.
And so I would say one big thing I’ve learned over the years is I’m just going to dive into the like negative term for it. I think how much of like politics is basically like networking, which is such a gross word, obviously to me. And at least for me and my like class background, I, that was the thing that was thrown at me is like when I was 17 and a junior.
Of like something career something networking. And I was like I don’t fucking want, I don’t give a shit about a career. So I don’t but in fact, like it is a skill to be able to go out and find like minded people and forge those relationships. And it’s a really important and valuable one.
And it’s not some shitty, like cynical thing where you’re like trying to find people who can do something for you. It’s Yeah. Think of like how much you value your friendships and how beautiful our relationships are and how much they make worth life worth living. Wouldn’t it, isn’t it awesome that you can go out and try to forge more of those connections.
And so it is just if you haven’t done it already, like that doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. Yeah, you can go out and look for, I think we’ve been talking about like bubbles and about like youth specific circles, for example, should exist side by side with other movements or groups.
Try to just go find those other groups and maybe, and you don’t have to do it in the sense of am I going to quote unquote, join and like full time be in a group or something. But just trying to find what groups are out there and going to some of their stuff sometimes at least just to meet people.
And you can even explicitly say Hey, I’m not necessarily super interested. In dedicating as much time as you guys are to the thing that you’re working on, but I wanted to show up to meet you guys because I’m doing this other thing. And wanted you to know about that. And we’re doing our different things, but supporting each other.
Yeah, I can be long winded sometimes, but the message is pretty simple. Like there are older, cool people out there who didn’t sell out and try to like, go out and find them and you don’t have to do every single thing with them, but you can go to like different groups and you don’t have to agree with 100 percent of everything that’s going on or with their emphasis.
Cause you don’t have to like. Quote unquote, join and dedicate your life to a group. You can just show up sometimes different things, different places, try to meet people. And then, like, when you guys can help each other out, then you know each other, and that’s great.
mk: Thank you so much for touching on this. The idea that we really want our youth specific spaces, and we also need intergenerationality to remind us what’s possible in the anarchist movement. And, there can absolutely be, like, a sense of intertwinement and mutual care between those. That’s why I love being part of, Bashback and other anarchist tendencies, in which, all of that is normalized and it doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. And I feel like that’s something ARA did really well. On that topic, do you have any shameless plugs regarding your book or other organizing?
Shannon: Mainly just the one, which is the book. It’s really fucking good. Yeah. I think listening, you like assume that like the author has to say that, or of course, every author thinks their book is good. Our book is so fucking good. I don’t give a shit dog. I know it is.
mk: Like having self published one. I feel the same way. I get it.
Shannon: Cool. Yeah. But yeah, so our book is we go where they go, the story of anti racist action. You don’t have to read it or seek it out if you don’t want to, but if you’re wondering if it sounds like something you might like, I bet you will it’s a really cool it’s very heavily based on.
The first hand accounts that like oral histories interviews that we did with people who were there it’s largely a story. We tried to make it a story of kind of. Are telling its own story as far as these people who are in anti racist action also not at all in a cheerleading way it’s a lot of really thoughtful, really dedicated people who are both giving their own first hand knowledge of what they did but also with like really sharp. Awareness and with the benefit of like 20 to 40 years of hindsight very wise things of, yeah, just the benefit of hindsight of things that they might’ve done differently and lessons learned and all this thing. So yeah, very accessible.
It’s a lot of it is like interviews told first person, a lot of cool stories, a lot of fun shit, a lot of good politics, a lot of pretty pictures and flyers and stuff. We go where they go. The story of anti racist action was published by PM press. You can get it from that website or. I think like bookshop.
org, maybe bookshop. com is, yeah something where you is a website where you can just order any book and it just like automatically connects you to your nearest independent bookstore. So that’s a good one. Yeah, sure.
mk: That one of our listeners right now is thinking this sounds amazing, but I’m 12 and my parents don’t know I’m an anarchist and I can’t purchase books. Where can I find a PDF? What would you say to that kid and anyone else like them?
Shannon: You, if you have a way to pay for things online, I think the ebook is like 8. If you can, yeah, from PM press. org.
mk: Thank you so much. Yeah. And also just a shameless plug for any during the world looking to get into anarchist theory the anarchist library. org has most historical anarchist theory and some of the newer stuff as well. If you’re someone who’s interested in anarchism, but maybe can’t pay for things online, and maybe can’t, talk to your parents about being interested in anarchism because who wants to do that I would highly suggest it.
And yeah so much. Yeah. And are there any other anarchy resources you’d like to share before we close out?
Shannon: I don’t think so, no.
mk: Super fair. Thank you so much for sharing your youth liberation journey. I’m MK Zariel, this has been Shannon Clay, and you’re listening to The Child and Its Enemies.
Shannon: Thanks. Thanks, everybody.