mk: Hello and welcome to The Child and Its Enemies, a podcast about queer and neurodivergent kids living out anarchy and youth liberation here at the Child and its enemies. We believe that youth autonomy is not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on projecting linear narratives of time and development and gender onto our necessarily asynchronous and atemporal.
Queer lives and youth and teams are at the center of this form of oppression. Our goal with the podcast is to create a space by and for youth that challenges all forms of control and inspires us to create feared, feral, ageless networks of care. I’m your host MK Zariel. I’m 16 years old and I’m a French masculine poet theater artist and insurrectionary anarchist in the Great Lakes region.
With me today is anarchist visual artist and mutual aid organizer shining oak.
Oak: Hey, mk, it’s great to be here. Thank you for welcoming onto your show. It’s so important to have representation and networks for queer youth. I wish I knew of these kinds of resources when I was your age. I feel really honored to be here.
I’m a 22-year-old multimedia artist and aspiring ecologist and educator. I’ve lived and worked in Atlanta or Muskogee Creek territory most of my life. But I’m currently based in Ireland. I dabble in different media, but my favorite is Relief Print. I center queer liberation in my art, and I also do environmental and food justice work in my personal life.
mk: So just from our brief conversation on signal, when you initially pictured this interview, you are nothing if not interdisciplinary in your art and your organizing. You work in woodcut and printmaking, drawing on ecology and ness and spirituality, and also organizing through mutual aid. Do you see yourself as tying these strands of liberation together or are they more discreet practices, and what does the praxis of artist anarchism and vice versa mean to you?
Oak: I definitely tie it all together. I don’t think my work would be what it is without one or the other. I still sometimes doodle things that are just for fun, but the more intentional stuff is what really keeps me inspired. Printmaking especially has a long history of organizing and social justice because it’s so accessible and really easy to distribute art through print.
And it’s actually the original form of graphic design. I’ve organized or participated in several fundraisers for mutual aid efforts, and recently I organized a communal print for Palestine where 13 different people carved their own blocks and we collaborated to print one big final image from each of them.
We’ve organized a few successful fundraisers for organizations in Gaza from these prints and. The really great thing about printmaking is that we can contin, we can continue to make more from the same blocks. I tie ideas from ecological justice, queerness, and my personal narratives or folklore into my own pieces, but it’s really special when groups of people who care about the same causes can come together and use their voices to create their own ripple of change.
In terms of organizing and anarchism, I’ve seen the most impact from artists who are collaborating together, whether it’s skill sharing or fundraising, or amplifying each other in other organizers more so than I have from s strictly from sticking strictly to individualism. I’d say that Art of anarchism to me is that probably just collaborating together and honing in on creative practices in order to make change in our communities, whether it’s locally or globally.
mk: I love that and I feel like that’s similar to how one might think about youth liberal. This isn’t just the help neoliberal healing your inner child idea. It’s about how we create Youth Liberationist Futures and Youth Liberationist lives and community. On a slightly related topic in the classic crime, think text, days of war, nights of love, dunno if you’ve, checked it out, but it’s a classic among naked instructionary anarchists who are pirate. Any anarchist literature online? Oh no,
Oak: I haven’t.
mk: Oh my God, you totally should. It’s so good. But anyway, there’s a quote about all forms of art, but especially the visual that says seek not to make a living from your art as any worker who sells his labor and thus his creativity for money does so he can make art your way of living.
Or even better to make living your art, we must use our creative. Not to make more representations of reality, but to transform reality itself. Can you share how you relate to the concept of representation and mediation as an artist? And what can it mean for art to connect you to the world rather than just representing it?
And does being queer and anarchist change that dynamic at all?
Oak: Yeah. Those are really good questions. Yeah, I think that actually transforming reality is really important for art making art that represents reality can be beautiful and dark and so many more interpretations that live between the lines.
But I love the idea of creativity, actually transforming it. Speculative fiction is something I’ve been exploring a lot lately. The idea that we can actually create our own narratives in a world that we want to live in. I heard somewhere this idea that the world can, that the world would cease to exist before we can even reimagining or before we can even reimagine our current capitalist situation is such a dire way of thinking versus actually trying to create a better world and imagine it and visualize what that might look like.
It just feels. So much more attainable to actually imagine it versus immediately thinking of collapse, I guess is how I’d say it. But science, fiction and fantasy are continuously teaching us the power of imagination. So why would we not imagine a better future even present? Obviously fascism and everything connected to it significantly hinder the success of the implementation.
But the only way that we can get even remotely close to a better world is through the power of collective creativity and imagination, and it’s so much more fun and inspiring that way too. Arienne Murray Brown explains in an episode of On Being, which I’m not sure if you’ve heard that podcast, but it’s by Krista Tippit and it’s amazing.
That we live in a imagination battle. And Adrian explains that there’s, when there’s no logic in a situation, you’re basically living in someone else’s dream. So it’s really important to challenge a dream that isn’t yours. And I think queer and anarchist spaces set a really good example of that, where everybody is just contributing their own unique skill or trade and is free to authentically express themself.
They also have an equal say in the discussion. Visual art has a major impact on that and vice versa. Whether you’re using a brush or a pencil or a carving blade, you can deliberately visualize a better world. Personally, I. I contribute by creating creatures and characters and storylines that function within queer and anarchist spaces.
Some ways I do this are like using really long flowing lines and winding textures that are similar to tree bark and really exaggerating fluidity. I’m also really fascinated by eco horror and. I exaggerate a lot of fantastical elements in nature and gender expansion. Satire has also been really fun for me to explore and just bringing attention to how monstrous the systems in place are.
But really I think all art forms have the power to transform reality and. We’re even doing it right now in podcast forum just by having this conversation. And as far as the other part of your question, it’s a hard balance between making art for art’s sake or mutual aid and making art or selling art to be able to survive under capitalism.
And that’s a balance I’m still trying to figure out, especially while I’m still navigating academia. But that’ll probably take me a few more years or. Who knows how long to figure that out. But I’m here for the journey.
mk: I absolutely love that framing of how art doesn’t just need to be a representation and how it can be a way to envision, ways of living out anarchism.
And I think that’s especially true for youth and teams because often HSM comes in the form of toxic social isolation. So we really need creative outlets so that we can know what’s possible, even when we aren’t able to experience it due to repression. Can you share a bit more about how spirituality comes into your art and what, and how queerness does, and how those identities and practices might reflect your relationship with youth liberation?
Oak: Yeah. It’s definitely all really connected. But my most recent body of work was largely inspired by Jewish mythological creatures, and I’ve just. I ran with these weird, whimsical monsters that I’ve either created or taken inspiration from since because that’s my own ancestry and I feel really inspired by other anti-Zionist and anti-fascist queer Jews who are doing or have done similar work to me.
Claude Kaun is one of my very favorite artists and writers, and their work is amazing if you haven’t heard of them, but that’s been a huge way for me to connect. With my own ancestry and yeah, just really have a deep understanding, I think. Build off of that history. But I think a lot of general ideas from Kabbalah as well loosely fall into my work too, like interconnectedness and magic and making space for grief and honoring ecology.
Like trees are the phases of the moon. But I also have my own spirituality that’s a conglomeration of cabalistic ideas and also witchcraft. And there’s a really long history there that ties between the two. But I will, I could go deeper into that a different time. But on a general note, I extract bits and pieces of each and of queerness to focus on ideas of marginalization and otherness.
I think my queerness functions really is the main tie between it all. It’s. Probably the most important aspect of my spiritual practice in artistic practice because to be queer is to exist authentically and expressively. And I was making art about my queerness before I even realized that I was queer or even before I came out.
And it’s a constant expansion and commitment to myself that’s unlike any material good. And I think that hopefully aligns with. To a lot of younger people and teens. And in terms of age and youth liberation, in my own practice I’ve had several children’s art education, environmental education jobs too.
Art really does play such a huge role in allowing kids to express themselves. And the amount of inspiration that I’ve gotten just from my students alone is really immeasurable. It’s so amazing to see how the creative mind is before it understands how unjust the world can be. And I think everybody should continue art making in a way that’s as playful as a child would.
And I think one of the best ways to preserve that would be to take care of our youngest neighbors so that they can continue acting as a force for good throughout all stages of their lives.
mk: Yes, absolutely. I I think that’s especially important right now with trans youth because there are so many things that, especially.
Younger trans youth who are maybe not yet teenagers yet are facing and don’t have space to talk about. I’ve been working with this wonderful small press on getting some of my poetry out there, and they recently did an open call for trans people from six to 12 to talk about their lived experiences.
And I just think stuff like that is so important. So
Oak: yeah.
mk: Amazing. You mentioned that you’re mostly based in Atlanta, and I’m wondering how has your art changed given the immense eco cidal, sadism and repression and now a Rico case in your region? And what role would you say art plays in anti repression work?
Oak: Ooh, yeah, like you said, even just in terms of poetry for youth, like art plays a such a huge role, but in terms of Stop Cup City, my art has shifted so much since the beginning of the movement in 2021, and it’s been four years now, which is crazy. I saw an update on that the other day and I just was really amazed by how fast the time has gone.
But I’m actually working on a graphic novel right now where the main characters stumble into this alternative space and it’s in a magical forest and it’s inspired a lot by the community. That was. Built around defending Milani the Ani Forest. And so I guess going back, like historically the first week of action was soon after I graduated high school, so I was still navigating a lot of changes between COVID and big transitional times and next stage of adulthood. And I felt really moved to see so many people coming together for the Alani Forest and against the militarization of the a PD. It was my first exposure to an autonomous and largely queer space, and the community fighting against this horrible state repression really showed me so much and.
I think that’s been reflected in my art and organizing since then, since the very beginning. And it’s really beautiful to see even in times of darkness, people cooking and sharing meals and people were just gathered around the woods and honoring the mother tree and foraging, singing, having concerts in the woods, and playing instruments and dancing, painting signs.
Puppets distributing free pro produce for like free groceries outside the forest. And it was just really, I think from the start, it’s been a really beautiful movement and it has delayed construction, but obviously there’s been a lot of repression and there’s still been destruction of the forest and it’s very heartbreaking, but.
Yeah, I think the community that was built there was really, is really a special community. I’ve made several friends within the movement and I’ve also gained some really special knowledge to during the first week of action to defend Alani, I helped to organize a free children’s arts and crafts day in the forest and.
Kids and families came and made woodland creature masks and koma masks, which were inspired by the Komas and princess Que by Studio Ghibli. And since then I just kept making graphics for social media. When I was not living in Atlanta for school. So there was still that way to be involved without having that physical connection.
And in terms of my personal practice, I’ve been hand printing lino cut t-shirts to raise funds for incarcerated in state, repressed for defenders for a couple years now. And I incorporated a lot of my passion for Stop Cop City into organizing while I was in college too. My conversations in ecological and artistic spaces tend to always circle back to the moments that I had there in Mulani, and I have so much credit to give to that community.
Yeah, I’d say pretty much all of my art somehow traces back there. And I definitely think art brings community and creativity to the surface. And it has a huge role to play because it really allows us to create together and uplift each other’s voices and stories. And like I said before, like it really allows us to both escape this reality, but also to create a reality or future that we can believe in and stand behind.
mk: Oh, I love that. And I love the idea of youth Liberationist spaces as a form of eco defense. I hadn’t even thought about the possibility of, bringing youth into the wheel forest and letting kids access that community, especially given the risk of losing it. Yeah. KU of the youth were doing that and I, here in the Great Lakes region, while we don’t have the same amount of forest defense, there are definitely pipeline struggles. And I know of an affinity group. Not something I was directly involved in sadly, but something that I heard of that did youth worry and did theater about pipeline struggles to explain it to children and get them involved.
And that ended up really helping with the adults activist burnout around it too.
Oak: That’s
mk: incredible. Just love it. That’s a great movement. Yeah. It’s
Oak: it’s, yeah. Getting kids involved is also such a important way to just show that activism is not this big, scary thing that it’s painted as. And having kids’ voices is so important.
And teen’s, voices too, and yeah. That’s really beautiful. I love hearing that.
mk: And also that kind of shows that, direct action that we might hear about in mainstream media is really the tip of the anarchist iceberg. If you’re five, you’re not going to blow up a pipeline, but you might still hear about, protecting the nature around you.
Oak: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It really shows like basic needs and wants. But yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
mk: Yeah. I know you referenced doing some community organizing in high school, and I’m wondering how else did you organize and make art as a kid, as a teenager, if at all?
Oak: Yeah, I I’ve always made art.
I loved drawing and painting since I was a little kid, and I definitely got more serious about it in high school and I was taking more advanced classes. But it always felt freeing and especially as a neurodivergent person, it was really important and a fun way for me to express myself without having to use words.
As far as organizing, I did a lot of volunteer work with. My high school’s art service club, and we helped out with children’s workshops at the High Museum, which is I think the most well known art museum in Atlanta. And we also went to afterschool programs and elementary schools around the area too.
And I did some more organizing with Environmental Club at my school, and we did recycling and water testing. But I think that the main turning point for me in terms of social justice organizing, and not necessarily just environmental or art, but something that kind of tied it all together was. In 2018 when the mass shooting happened at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, and it was majority young people who were using their voices and who were working really hard to have our voices heard.
And there was a nationwide school walkout. And I wanna say, oh, I don’t know, a few hundred I think students walked out at my high school and we all got in school suspension and in remembrance of, or in reprimand of just like walking out of class and remembrance of students who were killed and people who were the same age as us and.
It was a huge turning point of just understanding that administrations and the state didn’t have the best interest of the people that they claimed to protect. So yeah, I speaking for myself at least, like I really felt strength in numbers and that was a huge turning point for me. And then I think soon after that, with 2020 and all the protests with.
Like Black Lives Matter protests and COVID being at its peak, like those couple years were a really big turning point I think in like social consciousness of a lot of people in the us. I.
mk: Yeah I really agree that it can be so important, especially as the youth and teen, to have community with other youth and teens who are organizing because otherwise it can feel intimidating to be the only teenager, especially if you’ve been in the education system.
And yeah. I’m so glad that you had access to school clubs that shared some of your values. I, I can, I’ll always remember like starting an anarchist group at my middle school because I didn’t know any other anarchists.
Oak: Wow.
mk: And of course, like I had an affinity group that was mixed age, but I was like, why aren’t any of the other middle schoolers reading classical anarchist theory?
Oh, it’s because their parents don’t want them to. That’s great. That’s amazing. Yeah, it’s still active, so that’s been pretty fun to watch. I I, yeah, I am the reason that a few 12 year olds ended up reading Emma Goldman and then getting yelled at by their families when their family saw their search history.
But, it happens.
Oak: So anyway that’s
mk: what would’ve made art and organizing more accessible for you when you were younger. And what would make the DIY art community more accessible to youth and teens in general?
Oak: First of all I wish my middle school had an anarchist club. If I had something like that when I was younger, that would’ve been so eye-opening.
But yeah, I think. For the DIY art community and organizing in general especially like art organizing, it’s always really helpful to see calls for a variety of things. And if someone doesn’t have the resources or energy to come to an event in person, that’s, that can be completely fine. And help can be contributed in so many other ways in a few.
Organizing group chats, like people will send out a call, like looking for someone to design a graphic or a flyer, and even if I wasn’t there in person or if I didn’t have the capacity to contribute in person, I felt really called to join that and to. Contribute in that way. Because I knew I could take on a small virtual task like designing a graphic.
And it was especially helpful if the call out communicated what all it should include with agreement from others in the organization instead of. Just one person solely directing it like oh my God.
mk: Yeah. I am, I also do a lot of graphic design for social movements and sometimes it’s just okay, can we get all of these on one signal thread rather than having to join 10 signal threads to complete one graphic.
Oak: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. And just having everybody kind of agreeing on Yeah, like this is visually. Like comprehensible, like the graphics are easy to read and it just is easy to digest. And yeah, just having that understanding, I think especially like taking disabilities into consideration too.
And then. Like physically, if if there’s a location, a physical location, like having signage and communication regarding accessibility options, like if a place has stairs and it like is a ramp accessible and if it’s nighttime or outdoor or outdoors, is, are there any lights or trail markers to guide the paths and, also like having image descriptions on a social media post is really important too. And considering fees too, like listing of something has a fee or if there’s an option for sliding scale or pay what you can and. That’s been growing a lot lately. Just having not a lot of options, like no one turned away for lack of funds, which is great.
And having the option for people who have more resources to sponsor a ticket for someone with less resources and like if it’s an art event to it should be considered if supplies are included. Which I did a pretty. Cool fundraiser recently that had an art supply trade component, which was great.
Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. The DIY art scene in Atlanta is really cool ’cause there’s places like the supermarket, which sometimes host live model sessions. And in terms of art making that is so important because it helps remove a lot of stigma around self-taught art being just as legitimate as fine arts education.
And there are a lot of folks in organizing spaces who require additional support and to have things inaccessible really hurts everyone and makes things so much less Inviting, transparency, I think, is the most important thing, and so everyone is all on the same page and. Yeah. And the district just the distribution of labor too is really important.
mk: Yes, absolutely. I also think like horizontal organizing almost implies accessibility. Like last year I was part of organizing and anarchist convergence here in the Midwest, and we had multiple guest speakers who as it turns out, had either religious observances or access needs or whatever that they yeah.
But they ended up hearing as soon as we decided to include speakers in organizing. But if we had just kept it to like a small organizing committee, like the majority of events have, then we would’ve run into problems pretty quickly. So I just think like opening up our spaces can really help with that.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So on this, on a similar topic, less accessibility oriented, but whatever what advice would you have for kids and teens who wanna create radical art? Have networks of care and mutual aid, and generally live out queer and advanced anarchy.
Oak: I would say to seek out spaces that make you feel free and genuine and contribute however, is best for you in whatever ways honor your own art making practice.
I’m biased, but I think printmaking is a really good way to start, but it’s also great to just collaborate with other artists and creatives in general in however ways you can, and everyone really has. Something to bring. And everybody has their unique skills. You can join workshops if that’s what you’re into, and you can meet other artists and learn more skills.
And I say expanding your skills and practicing while you’re young is really fun and you can go from there. I don’t really think that there’s one right way to do it other than to just do what feels good and right for you and, if a space does, if a space seems like there’s one or a few people constantly upholding all the rules and regulations and not willing to take suggestions, it may have some things that it needs to work on within the organization or within the group.
And any organization you get involved in needs to be able to accept feedback from within and to be able to actively work to better itself. Ideally, each person should be contributing their own share of what they have the capacity for, and everybody’s carrying a pretty equal weight. Mutual aid is really all about relationship and building community, so it can be really beneficial to have your own personal, local community or your chosen family.
And we need to practice collective care at a small scale before we can even think about practicing at a larger scale. If someone in your community is in need of something that you can offer, you can initiate a trade, like a good for a service or something similar, and I think that’s a really. Big like way to access that.
And imagine it on a larger scale too. Once I exchanged helping someone wash their dog for a hand-painted mask, and that was really fun.
mk: Oh, that’s awesome. Actually we’ve had some stuff like that on the child and sending Mees Discord server mostly with digital collaborations because obviously it’s an online space.
We’ve had people help one another with navigating self-directed education and with writing youth liberationist content online. And sometimes with more mundane things, like we’ve had a few tech problems on the server that people have helped each other navigate. But I I feel like youth Liberationist faces are great for this because often the stuff that youth are navigating, we really just need to talk to people who are going through the same issues.
So yeah, definitely. Yeah. So to close out, do you have any shameless plugs, whether for your work or other people’s work or just anarchist things that you think are cool?
Oak: Oh my gosh, I have so many. I’ll start with books and authors and podcasts and then I’ll go into like mutual aid stuff, but right now I’m for the
mk: podcast.
Wow. Sorry, go
Oak: ahead. What’d you say
mk: as you’re currently on a podcast that feels thematically appropriate?
Oak: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it’s easy spew it all out. But yeah, right now I’m reading Margaret Killjoys. We Won’t Be here tomorrow, and it’s been giving me so much inspiration, specifically in terms of speculative fiction and queer anarchism.
And Killjoy also just came out with another book, the Sapling Cage, and she hosts the podcast cool people who did cool stuff by Cool Zone media. And cool zone runs. A few more podcasts, few, but it could happen here by Rob Evans is another really good one. And some more podcasts I plug are on being with Krista Tippett, which is one I mentioned earlier that had the episode with Adrienne Mary Brown.
Ologies with Ali Ward is amazing and also the pro the Poor Pearls Almanac. Some authors I’d recommend are Adrian, Mary Brown, Robin, Wal Kimer, and Dr. Ana Elizabeth Johnson. And this also, oh yeah, you can that part. To support those fighting the con, the destruction of the Ani Forest support, the Atlanta Solidarity Fund and the South River Watershed Alliances stop the swap lawsuit.
They’re both still actively working and there are some Appalachian orgs right now in the aftermath of Hurricane Elaine who still need our help too. Pansy Collective and Mego Mag, which is an independent media outlet and. If you feel called to support artists in the Asheville River Arts District, the Asheville Print Studio is a good place to donate to to support victims of the LA wildfires.
Some good organizations are water Drop la, which is. Providing water mainly to people on Skid Row and another organization called Off the Grade Missions. Who’s providing disaster relief to those with auditory impairments? And if you’re looking to support genocide victims globally, some really great.
Small organizations in Gaza are mini lands, mutual aid. The director is Hussein and I’ve been connected with him for the past year or so and he’s really amazing. And then Hope and Gaza is another one, and that’s also run by someone I’ve become friends with named Ahmed too. And both are great organizations and doing direct action in Gaza.
Some ways to follow along with other places that are experiencing genocide or Team Congo RDC on Instagram, Sudan. Updates on Instagram and free tigray on Instagram. For those of you who have it, I know there’s. A lot going on with meta. So there are other ways to stay informed too, but just plugging some accounts.
And then an artist collective that’s doing some major work connecting liberation movements is just seats. But some of the most important work that we can each do right now in our own. Is supporting any of our local, queer, trans, bipoc, reproductive and disability rights organizations. And that can be whether you, we paste their information on phone polls, share HRT resources, sponsor a local drag queen coffee, or donate to any of these organizations, anything and everything really helps.
mk: Thank you so much for sharing all those research and your youth Liberation journey. This has been Shining Oak, and you’re listening to Ang If you wanna learn more or join us on Discord and Signal. Our website is thechildanditsenemies.noblogs.org. I’m mk Zariel. Thanks for listening. Stay safe, stay dangerous.